Home Forums Hand Reviews Tournament Hands Dealing with limpers/Too aggressive?

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  • grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    PokerStars – 60/120 Ante 12 NL – Holdem – 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

    SB: 94.63 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 28)
    Hero (BB): 27.22 BB
    UTG: 49.37 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 6.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 48)
    UTG+1: 41.57 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
    MP: 60.62 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 48)
    MP+1: 79.17 BB (VPIP: 53.33, PFR: 53.33, 3Bet Preflop: 80.00, Hands: 15)
    MP+2: 39.3 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
    CO: 43.69 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 4.26, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 48)
    BTN: 34.48 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 19)

    9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2.4 BB) Hero has Jc Kc
    fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 6.5 BB, UTG+1 calls 5.5 BB, fold, fold

    Flop : (16.4 BB, 2 players) 3c Td 2s
    Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 1 BB, Hero raises to 7 BB, UTG+1 calls 6 BB

    Turn : (30.4 BB, 2 players) 9d
    Hero bets 13.62 BB and is all-in, UTG+1 calls 13.62 BB

    River : (57.65 BB, 2 players) 7d

    Hero shows Jc Kc (High Card, King)
    (Pre 31%, Flop 18%, Turn 7%)

    UTG+1 shows Qs Kh (High Card, King)
    (Pre 69%, Flop 82%, Turn 93%)

    UTG+1 wins 57.65 BB

     

    Hey everyone. This is the first hand I post so I hope the format is ok, as I copied it from PT4.

    My thoughts on the hand…well, initially I’d go for a check/call and lead any 9JQK and any club, I’d consider a c/raise in a club turn but I doubt he would show that power and bet a club turn after betting that weak on flop. However, after this min bet on flop, I opted for a raise as I believe in most cases they have either air, or a weak pair or a draw.

    After he calls in this board , I put him Axs like A3, A2,A5,A4, mid pocket pairs, of course could have limped 22,33, and 109, 108, or even J10 and perhaps some 56s, 45s. To be honest at that very moment I couldn’t think clear and construct his folding/calling range and I felt that 9 was a good card to push hime and make fold most of hislimping range aprart from the sets and the 109 obviously. In fact not sure if he’d fold any random turned draw.

    I’m still confused on how I should have approached this hand considering that he was covering me and had the tendency to never fold.

    bencb
    Keymaster
    Post count: 850
    grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    Got it! Sorry and thanks Ben. Here it is in forum format.

     

    PokerStars – 60/120 Ante 12 NL – Holdem – 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    SB: 94.63 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 28)
    Hero (BB): 27.22 BB
    UTG: 49.37 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 6.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 48)
    UTG+1: 41.57 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
    MP: 60.62 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 48)
    MP+1: 79.17 BB (VPIP: 53.33, PFR: 53.33, 3Bet Preflop: 80.00, Hands: 15)
    MP+2: 39.3 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
    CO: 43.69 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 4.26, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 48)
    BTN: 34.48 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 19)

    9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2.4 BB) Hero has J:club: K:club:

    fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 6.5 BB, UTG+1 calls 5.5 BB, fold, fold

    Flop: (16.4 BB, 2 players) 3:club: T:diamond: 2:spade:
    Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 1 BB, Hero raises to 7 BB, UTG+1 calls 6 BB

    Turn: (30.4 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
    Hero bets 13.62 BB and is all-in, UTG+1 calls 13.62 BB

    River: (57.65 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:

    Hero shows J:club: K:club: (High Card, King)
    (Pre 31%, Flop 18%, Turn 7%)
    UTG+1 shows Q:spade: K:heart: (High Card, King)
    (Pre 69%, Flop 82%, Turn 93%)
    UTG+1 wins 57.65 BB

    rye_mariano5
    Moderator
    Post count: 1925

    Please give us your thoughts on the hand. What are arguments for each play?

    grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    Guys, I think trazocapim’s hand has been posted on the wrong place. Not sure why is a reply to my hand, which by the way wasn’t reviewed yet :(

    rye_mariano5
    Moderator
    Post count: 1925

    Hey grobari, sorry I missed your hand there!

    Just cbet the flop about 5-6 bbs. You have a strong percieved range, many value hands in that range here, a range advantage vs him, and our hand has great backdoor equity so we can shove any turn club, J, Q, K, A (not always good though because he can float flop with many Ax, but he will also have many low pps and other shit that will fold on the A and we have a gutter)

    grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    Thanks very much! Yeah, indeed, looking at it again and still ask myself why didn’t I just cbet on that dry flop..Would be much easier to continue having a clearer picture of the hand overall.

    Thanks Mariano

    elperroloco
    Participant
    Post count: 11

    Original Hand : I think you have to be a little careful when isolating limpers because they tend to be very sticky.

    I think preflop is totally fine because you are ahead of villains ranges and your hand has good playability.

    On the Flop I dont understand your check. Your range should be very well ahead of villains on the dry board

    So you can place a tiny bet with your whole range profitably. To me the right c-bet size seems one third pot or even less.

    As played and Villain bets your raise seems a little bit of because the range of value hands you represent is very narrow like trip tens and aces so your story is not quite so much believable and I would prefer to call his bet by a large margin.

    Yeah I agree too your point that he is probably weak but for these kind of players its hard to push them off the hand in general and in my opinion you shouldnt use a spot where your play doesnt make too much sense at all.

    The additional problem is stacksizes with the flop raise you put your self in a very awkward stack considering the stacks left on the turn. After he calls your raise on the flop where you represent trips or aces I would be done with hand normally.

    However when you turn Equity it cant be too bad because you need very little Bluff Equity to make the shove profitable.

    I think where you really butchered the hand is on the flop.

     

    grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    Thank you for your time and thoughts elperrloco. Totally agree, my flop play cost me the hand, on which he would never fold. Thanks, much appreciated

    albie bay
    Participant
    Post count: 27

    A couple of thoughts.

    First, I am looking at the open limpers tendencies in planning my approach to this spot. How often does he limp fold ? How often does he fold to a cbet ? If the answer is not much in both cases  then I probably size down  just a little preflop to give myself more room to play on multiple streets postflop and/or just cost myself less if the board is unhelpful: I think 5bb should be enough to isolate the original limper and/or generate enough fold equity at these effective stacks.

    Second, readless, I agree with others that we should should cbet here. I think  a small flop size is  correct polarizing our barrelling range  on the turn i.e. sizing up with our value and good bluffs.Having KJs is decent as we block some Tx in villains range like JT,KT . One cautionary note though:in practice , the type of villain who limp calls preflop and then calls a flop cbet will not in my experience be quick to fold on the  turn:these guys like their hand and will need a reasonably  good reason not to continue. So before barrelling  I tend to think not just in terms of  whether the turn increases my pot equity but whether it generates good fold equity.Here, this type of villain will call a small cbet  with a lot of Ax on this texture and the turn card is good for you pot  equity wise  and in fold equity terms as it puts a lot of pressure on Ace high floats and  any small pairs  which villain somehow hit ( guys like this may open limp K2s etc. and A2s/A3s:though when you have enough stats on a villain look at your specific reads to see if they are capable of folding the latter to a turn barrel).

    grobari
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    Thanks albie, I totally agree, I didn’t give the right amount of thinking on this hand at that time. All this reasoning you and folks deployed was very helpful. Thanks

    bencb
    Keymaster
    Post count: 850

    Jep, agree what people have been advising here. Cbet flop small but then I would jam turn if we pick up equity. Those guys will call lot of A highs and random shit on the flop and you will have enough fold equity on the turn.

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