Home Forums Poker Strategy Sit and Go Strategy 6max Hyper SNG FGS Depth in ICMizer

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  • the_koorn
    Participant
    Post count: 199

    Hello Everybody,

    one of the points I’m quite unsure about is how to adjust the FGS-Depth in ICMizer (in my case especially for 6max hyper SNGs). After all, the EV is quite different for any value, be it 1 or 6. I know that FGS-Depth means how many hands ICMizer looks into the future (so from 1 to 6 hands), but just how applicable this is to real life I’m not sure. After all, most opponents don’t play nash I guess…

    So, do you think it might be a case of putting FGS to a value that let’s me get through the blinds to take them into account? Or should I just keep it at 1? Which situations might be prone to be analyzed with 1, and which might be better analyzed with 6? Sorry I can’t give more of an oppinion here, maybe you guys can help me with that.

    thx and greetz

    koorn

    the_koorn
    Participant
    Post count: 199

    put some more time into thinking about FGS Depth and came to the following result: (after also seeing a RYE mod answer a similar question in the SNG discord, but can’r remember who it was)

    As a baseline:

    • Just use FGS from UTG, then at a depth of 2 to simulate you going through the blinds
    • The more your opponentys deviate from nash, the less use there is for FGS, so use less against fishy villains and more against good players

    That’s as far as I got. I know that ICMizer and Collin Moshman did a Twitch-Stream on what they thought was best, but I missed that unfortunately. Maybe I can find that somewhere and tell you guys more in the future…

    bencb
    Keymaster
    Post count: 835

    In general you want to go as deep as possible. But keep in mind, FGS favors midstakes a lot since they expect the midstake to win the folding wars more often. FGS does not consider blind increases which are very important in SNGs.

    So FGS of 5-6 might not be as realistic as we think since blind increases are not included hence, our future game is not so much favorite compared to the current lowstack.

    Indeed, a good orientation point is when hitting the blinds in order to determine a more accurat EV of a certain move.

    The shorter we get the less ICM applies. We should approach it from a more logical stand point. Is it likely that you get a better spot in the future? Especially when we have around 4-7BB. Talking about spots where we consider taking -0.1 – -0.2 pushes. There is no mathematical solution present yet.
    Just try to analyse as many spots as possible to get a feeling for those close spots. In general, it is not a big mistake to take slightly -ev pushes when becoming short, in fact it is actually better since blind increase is not considered.

    the_koorn
    Participant
    Post count: 199

    So if we are talkin pure Nash Equlibrium, we also should consider FGS when calling an Allin from UTG, right? Since it will slightly increase villains pushing range and therefore alter our calling range (a bit). Just talking pure Nash though. In the real world I guess the most important thing is to correctly estimate what kind of player villain is.

    bencb
    Keymaster
    Post count: 835

    No because it depends on our stack size. If we have 15bb and we face a 13bb UTG jam, we should not consider FGS.

    Also we should not expect from unknowns or fish that they take FGS into account. Look at your stack size and estimate whether you can gain any additional future game ev by calling and winning and vice versa.

    tonycoon
    Participant
    Post count: 4

    FGS does not consider blind increases which are very important in SNGs.

    To clarify, did you mean specifically ICMizer’s FGS?

    Since August 1, 2016, the option of a 1-time blind increase in FGS has been available in the beta versions of HRC (not in stable release versions).

    If you didn’t know about this HRC feature, I regret to inform you that it likely cost you many K$ of EV in hypersats over the last 18 months  (I don’t play them myself, but I obviously know that the blind increases are very steep there, unlike in normal hypers.)

    tonycoon
    Participant
    Post count: 4

    On a side note, your post has reminded me about a brilliant aphorism from one of the blogs.

    Here are some things to consider if you are a new player or are learning them.

    1) Icmizer vs Holdem resources. I tried both software out. I like them both for different reasons.

    Holdem resources is a must have imo because it allows you to create ranges for different situations. Of course these ranges are in the end just standard because you should have different ranges vs different opponents etc.

    Imo this helped me a lot because I am a kinesthetic learner. Therefore, by creating different ranges for different stack sizes/ situations etc I was able to quickly learn the correct ranges that should be used in game. I also have a pretty good memory so that helps. The downside to HRC is that it can be a bit complicated to learn how to use the software., I don’t think it’s the most inviting software but it definitely isn’t the most complicated to learn to use, there are a couple of videos on how to use it, I believe splitsuit just created one. I like HRC because it can calculate non all-in 3bets and 4bets. So if you don’t know what you can be 3betting, or flatting to 3bets, this can give you a pretty good idea. You can do this through sims, so you don’t actually need any hand history for this.

    However Icmizer is like that sexy blonde that everyone wants to go and dance with. Man I love icmizer, and by that I mean, I love the quiz that it has haha. It simply is the NUTS.

    I couldn’t have put it better. To me, ICMizer is exactly this. A blonde that one dances with but eventually abandons to marry a brunette.

    bencb
    Keymaster
    Post count: 835

    yeah thats true!
    I really havent played that many hyper sats anyway. Only with 1-2 fish and I have been doing some study on my own how to use blind increase into account in these games and adjust properly :)

    bernardas1994
    Participant
    Post count: 1

    Hey!

    I hope this topic is not dead. Because it kept me awake last night. I can only imagine how many ICM mistakes i have made due the fact that my FGS was always one depht 1. I looked some different spots with different depths and got depressed. I will upload an example. First picture is with FGS 2 second is the FGS 1 that i always used and its a HUGE difference. Btw on FGS 3 calling range is 20%. In the ICMIZER site i found that ” The recommended depth setting is number of players at the table minus one” – should i just use that one or basic ICM in these spots? Will be thankfull for any advice.

    rye_tomy
    Participant
    Post count: 558

    Hey man! I would use FGS only when im hitting bb next hand (so in your example when you are on btn).

    ghosted
    Participant
    Post count: 1

    Guys I live in India so there is not much use of Softwares. I would appreciate it if someone could let me know if I need both ICMIZER and HRC or 1 will do. IF 1 then which should I buy?

    Thanks in advance

    rye_tomy
    Participant
    Post count: 558

    If you are serious and playing sngs or mtts then you need icimizer or hrc yes. Icimizer is more user friendly, and hrc has little more in depth analysis. For both you also have like 14 days free trial so you can try them out.

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